Fereaba Moradiahani: The Importance of Therapy and Common Misconceptions

Jon has his friend Fereaba Moradiahani on the podcast who is currently pursuing a Master's in Family and Couples Therapy from Northwestern University. The two converse about therapy, the misconceptions surrounding it, and reasons why we struggle with vunerability.

WARNING: The subject of suicide comes up briefly in this episode. If this is triggering and you no longer feel safe, please seek professional help and phone the suicide help hotline: 1-800-273-8255 and dial 1

Transcript

Jon: 0:06

Welcome back. Feel free. The only podcast that'll tell you to chase your dreams and call you out on all your bullshit, myself included. You know, gimme a follow share and like on all those platforms you find on your phone and stuff. Appreciate it. So I say I have a special guest every time. I think all my guests are special. I said this on the last episode, so I got my friend Reba here. Uh, we're gonna be talking about. Hello? Oh, you can introduce yourself It's okay, my bad. Um, I got Reba here. She is here to talk about. We're talking about therapy, which is really big cuz on a lot of episodes for Feel free. I've talked about the importance of therapy, uh, especially in this day and age. And I wouldn't be the person I am without therapy. I'd like to make that clear. And Reba is, going for her masters. Yeah. In marriage and family therapy from Northwestern University, right? Yes. Yeah. Nice.

Reba: 0:58

Um, so I graduate in June. Hi everybody. I'm Farba.

Jon: 1:03

Um, you're graduating in

Reba: 1:04

June? Yes. Shit. Yeah. So it's coming up. It's coming up. It's pretty exciting.

Jon: 1:10

Hell yeah. Uh, so what made you want to get into this? Because you, we were talking a little bit and you said you were studying law for a little bit.

Reba: 1:17

Yeah. Yeah. So I always like, it's so interesting when you think about people talking about therapy and I was a huge supporter of therapy, but then I also never went to therapy. Okay. And so I was like, yeah, I think, you know, therapy is great for people, but the similar like, well, I don't think I need it, you know? Right. And so I was preparing myself for law school kind of. Figuring out what path to go into. But I always kind of set myself up thinking that I was gonna end up going in law school. So I liked sociology, majored in sociology, picked up philosophy, and I was like, these two fit with law and they're subjects that I'm interested in, so I'm gonna, you know, go that route and continue. And then I, there was a point in time where I was like, is law it for me? I'm not sure. And I thought about couple's therapy before being a couple's therapist, and I was like, I don't really have experience in this area. I don't know how I'm gonna get into it. Like, you know, I'm, I'm down this law path and it feels like it works right now. And I know that, you know, people can change majors all the time or like, you know, after. after they, you don't have to be stuck in one job forever. Right. And I don't think that I was ever that person that was going to be stuck in one job forever. Mm-hmm. So I was like, you know what, you have this law thing. It seems like it's working. Let's do that. And so I went to law school and that lasted about a semester Um, I started out, I think, in the best mental space. I was really, you know, I was physically active at the time. I was really working on myself. I was like, you have to be in this. It was to prepare yourself for law school, cuz you know, it's intense, right. So you have to figure out ways that you're gonna self-regulate during this. Mm-hmm. and I went to law school and I, it just wasn't for me. I was very. That was like everything plummeted when I was in law school. Yeah. It really did for me. And the one thing that I didn't pick up on was therapy before going to law school. And luckily my school, I went to DePaul Law and they offered, you know, I think 10 to 12 free therapy sessions with their school therapist, um, who was also a trainee. So I started seeing her while I was in law school and I was like, I don't know what to do. I really wanna leave. And then I was worried about all the external, you know, family pressure, your own, you know, did I, am I giving up when I shouldn't be? And so on. And she was like, it honestly sounds like you've already made your decision, You just need, you know, the okay to do it right. And so what do you need to get that? Okay. And I was like, I think I just got it. I just needed somebody to tell me Yeah. That it's okay to leave, you know? Right. To do what you actually want to do. Exactly. And it's not selfish and it's not, you know, it's not, it doesn't. Mean anything outside of whatever you want it to mean for yourself. Of course. And so thinking. Yeah. So then I dropped law school and was kind of like, okay, you know what, where do I go from here? And so couples therapy was always in the back of my mind, but again, I didn't have the skills and I kind of did a little bit of subbing and I had some education stuff under my belt. And then the, to get a t. Certificate. It was like a shorter period of time to, to do that. And so I, you know, loved traveling, wanted to kind of get that experience down and again, found myself teaching English in Korea and I still wanted to tend to the children's emotions again. Oh, look at, you know, how the different parenting styles impacts, like children in, in school and what they think of themselves. And so just kind of getting back into that. And so I came back from Korea and I was gonna continue for a couple more years. Um, but then the pandemic hit and so. That was just, that was tough.

Jon: 4:59

Yeah. tough for everybody.

Reba: 5:01

Transformative in a way. And I was like, okay, it's time to get settled into something. I know that even with Korea, I was like, when, when am I gonna stop this? And, and really settled into what I wanna do and, and I think that my answer was to go into couple's therapy when I was kind of done with that. And yeah. The pandemic just kind of sped that up. I was like, I wanna be around my friends and family and I wanna make sure that I have a stable way of being able to do that. And so I took, you know, the covid year off and then the following year I got accepted and now we're here. Nice. After two years

Jon: 5:36

that, that's still like good moves though. Yeah. I mean, some people will, you know, work jobs they don't like for their entire lives, you know? Yeah. Because of those outside pressures and stuff. Yeah. You know, and you got the ability to go overseas, which is huge, you know? Yeah. Uh, meet a whole new culture of people. well, you're still thinking of, you know, the couple's therapy and everything, and then you got accepted into Northwestern and that's, that's a really fucking good school. Yeah. So, so that's awesome. thanks.

Reba: 6:04

Yeah. Yeah. It, I think about my own process in even applying, and there was this one point where I was like, I was with my partner Linda at the time, and I was like, you know, I don't even think I'm, I'm good enough. Maybe I just, you know, maybe I should wait another year, get some more experience or something. And she, the doubts, yeah. She looked at me dead in the eye and she's like, you have gotten me to open up more than any other therapist I've ever had was I think that you're made for this that you should do it. There you go. And so that was, You know, another okay. That I just needed to keep going in the direction that I was. And that was pivotal for me too. It, it's like interesting how much weight we put on which institution you're going to, but ultimately that was like, I, I just as challenging as the program has been, I've always had it in the back of my mind. Like I was made to be here and you can do it. Yeah. Yeah. And each quarter I was like, I, I survived the quarter. Right. Like so,

Jon: 7:02

but now you're here. That's awesome. Yeah. So you're gonna be graduating in June? Yeah. So, well, my one question was, do you, do you work with couples right now?

Reba: 7:12

Yeah. Okay. It's fully immersive. So I think about six weeks into the program, maybe seven weeks of the program, they're like, all right, it's time to start seeing clients. And that came as a shock,

Jon: 7:22

right? Right. You're like, oh God, yeah, I need more theory. Wait,

Reba: 7:26

you're trying to hold on to all of the like rules and whatever, and therapy's just such a gray area that you're like, can someone just tell me what to do?

Jon: 7:35

a tell me which questions to

Reba: 7:36

ask. Yeah. And the answer is always, it depends. So, but that,

Jon: 7:44

that was at the start of it though, so you gotta feel for how it goes now, right? Yeah.

Reba: 7:47

Yeah. And we had a lot of supervision. So all of our sessions are recorded. We go through the, our own recordings and we think about moments where we were kind of stuck, and we bring that into our group, um, supervision where other people are sharing their CA cases. So you're learning from them. But then also you bring in your case and you're like, I was kind of stuck here. And the supervisor helps you through that. Um, you also have an individual supervisor that you can go for the full hour with. Our group supervision is like three hours long. So then, then yeah, it's like another class basically. Um, right. I think usually in other programs they have the internship part where you find another place to do an internship at. But Northwestern has the Family Institute, which not to advertise, but therapy's free Really? So if anybody wants to sign up for it, yeah. They, oh shit. They sign up online and they work with students and they know that they're working with students and so everyone kind of benefits in that way. Yeah.

Jon: 8:47

I, I did

Reba: 8:48

not know that. Yeah. The Family Institute. Go on Google and

Jon: 8:51

find it. Is that where you're gonna be working when you graduate, or do you have something lined up right now?

Reba: 8:55

Um, so I don't have anything lined up. I have a specific place that I'm hoping to be at. It's called Live Oak in Chi, uh, in Chicago. Okay. There are other, other places that I'm looking at as well, but they have, it seems like a fellowship, which is a lot more training and they really are heavy on diversity, equity, and inclusion and like workshops on non-traditional relationships. Okay. So, yeah, I'm just trying to, trying to really learn. using my training wheels, Right.

Jon: 9:29

You're also trying to learn more than just what was taught at school. Exactly. Like being in different situations like

Reba: 9:34

that. Yeah. Nice. Yeah, and I think that they kind of know that, like they remind you that this is just the beginning of your training and I, you know, I've talked to someone and they're like, you know, they say it takes almost like seven years to be fully competent as a therapist, because a lot of it is, you can't take shortcuts in that experience. um, and learning process.

Jon: 9:56

Right. I, I can see that. I mean, it's every person that walks through the office door is a little different. Yeah. Their brain works a little differently. And so your plan has to be a little different too. Yeah. You're not gonna be able to get it in the first year or even the second year. Yeah.

Reba: 10:10

You know, and they make you feel some type of way, you know, like us sitting here, you know, our identity is the things that we say they impact you. And so part of our training is like learning how it impacts me. What are my biases and how can I get to know myself more in order to be a proper therapist for the person in front of me?

Jon: 10:29

Right. So you're almost in a state of self-reflection Yeah. As well. Constantly. Yeah. That's

Reba: 10:34

awesome though. Yeah. Yeah, my brother hears a lot of it and he's like, you're thinking too deep right now. It's not that deep. And I'm like, you

Jon: 10:41

can't not think deep. You can't turn it off

Reba: 10:43

though, but it is It totally is.

Jon: 10:47

Yeah. That actually leads me into my, my second question. So the thinking deeply, I was unaware that you had majored in philosophy. Yeah. When you majored in sociology, how has majoring in philosophy, has that affected your decision to be a family? Couple's, the.

Reba: 11:02

I think that it definitely helped. Okay. Um, you know, a lot of people when I would mention that I was, you know, getting my philosophy, you know, double major, um, they were kind of like, they looked at me and they're like, oh, like philosophy makes me feel confused and angry. And so how are you in that And I love that piece of it. I wanted to think outside of the box, I wanted to make the things that were hard to understand. Understandable in a way.

Jon: 11:33

Okay. Right. People definitely gave me some, uh, wide eyes and they're like, ah, I'm doing philosophy, you know, and they're like, what are you gonna do with that? And I'm like, I don't know. Think better. Yeah. You know, that's the. I, I call it the art of thinking. Yeah. What philosophy is, and it can be applied to anything, you know, which is why it's coupled so well with sociology, psychology, and law. Yeah. You know, and so the thinking deeply part of the self-reflection, like your brother said, it doesn't have to be that deep, but once you start thinking deep, you don't stop. You don't, and I think only by thinking more deeply are, are you able to connect with people on a different level. The more like ways you look at a problem or an issue or a person or an experience, the more different angles you get on it, the more well prepared you will be for the next person who comes in with a, a similar problem. Right. You know? Yeah. So it could only benefit you and, and the person you're seeing.

Reba: 12:27

Right? Yeah. And sometimes, like, sometimes the answer is just so obvious and like right in your face, but you don't think of it. And. Training yourself or like being open to those, those aha moments helps you again, yeah. With the next client. And sometimes it might not. So then you have to learn a whole new approach. And our training is an integrative systemic therapy. And so a lot of therapists do focus on one model, maybe two, um, and use that with our clients. integrative systemic therapy is like, I'm gonna take a little bit from this model and I'm gonna take a little bit from this model and this model and tailor it to the client. Gotcha. Because everybody's gonna be so different. Right.

Jon: 13:10

That's an interesting way I, I didn't even know there were modules, but I've only been a client my whole life.

Reba: 13:15

Yeah. There is a science behind that therapy. Alright. So a lot of people think that it is just talking, but we are strategic in the way that we talk to

Jon: 13:26

you. I, I should have assumed that here in the year 2023, that it, it, it was modules and, you know,

Reba: 13:32

science. Yeah. Some of, some of it is more, you know, empirical and studied than others. Mm-hmm. just because it's really hard to study something so immaterial. But also like there is a step-by-step approach, um, to, to some

Jon: 13:47

of these. So Brian on here to talk about the importance of therapy. Yeah. Right. And so my personal experience with, with therapy, I've, you know, I've had four therapists in my life. Two of them I only saw once or twice, right. Just didn't vibe with. Yeah. You know, and the other two stayed around for a very long time and I find that one of the stigmas with therapy in a couple instances in my life where I've told people they, they probably should go talk to somebody. They're like, well, I've tried it and I haven't, I didn't like the person I saw. And I'm like, well, you just said person, so you only tried once. Yeah. You know, and you're not gonna like the first therapist you meet. Yeah. Most of the time, you know. Yeah. If you do. It happened for me in high school, my first therapist in high school when I was 16. Like, I liked the guy, you know, I didn't tell him everything off the bat for six months cuz you know, there's a level of trust. But I liked him, you know? Yeah. So I stuck with him for like eight years after that. Then I went to, uh, I've been to and from Michigan a million times, you know, and like you had went to DePaul's. Therapy program. Yeah. They offered 10 to 12 free sessions. You know, I went to a couple, probably people training there, and this was when I was very deep into substance abuse and. Not a lot of people training in therapy, probably at a col collegiate se setting are, are ready for something like that. Yeah. Mostly they're dealing with like anxiety or depression or insomnia and stuff. But I like came in there with like full blown like substance abuse and like, you know, they probably weren't ready for that. So that turned me off and I actually stopped going to therapy for two years after that. Yeah. And then finally four years ago I had talked to Christina and got in contact with, uh, somebody who specialized in substance abuse. Mm-hmm. And he had, he was my mentor pretty much through the whole first three years of my sobriety. And I still see him and talk to him to this day. But is there anything you notice? Why people, other than like not finding a good therapist, are there people that give other reasons on why they don't go to

Reba: 15:51

therapy? Yeah. I think that there's an emotional response to needing therapy. There's this, what does that say about me if I need therapy? And I think that that's probably the biggest hump to get over as well as. You know what's gonna come up. Like some people don't wanna face their stuff because they know how sad they already get with it, and that's where it ends. Where in therapy, they're really gonna kind of help you see it through mm-hmm. and get to the other side. And, and that starting point can be really scary cuz you don't know what's gonna

Jon: 16:25

happen. Well, you swept everything under the rug because you didn't want to deal with it And now you're going to see somebody who's literally gonna lift the rug up and be like, yes. Hey, do you know what's under here? Like,

Reba: 16:36

uh, yeah, exactly. They'll say something and maybe crack a joke and we'll pause and be like, wait, wait, what was that? And they're like, wait, somebody's calling me on my shit. Like,

Jon: 16:47

so do most of the time people joke about their, is that a human condition? Like, uh, I think a lot of people do, right? A sadness or, um, an anger or something. They crack a joke about it. Yeah. Right. I, because that's a coping mechanism, right? A hundred

Reba: 17:02

percent for sure. And it's one of the, the best ways to cope, right? For people. You're laughing, you're making somebody else laugh. But we do question that a little bit. Oh. Course. And we're like, you know, and, and it's not to say that we don't laugh in therapy. Like there are moments where we connect and we're laughing and can make it light, but it's like when we notice that someone's doing. to deflect. Right. We like let it happen. We joke around and then kind of go back to that original thing that started the joke in the first place. Right? And so, yeah, the, there is a little bit of discomfort of I can't escape this thing that I just kind of admitted to my therapist. I think that also people, a lot of people say, you know, I have the support of my family and friends and they really attach that Yeah. To what we do as therapists too. Oh, I have friends. I don't need somebody to talk to.

Jon: 17:51

That only good. That only gets you so far. Yeah. You know, I, I will say this for a lot of, so neuro divergent is a term. mm-hmm. for people that have some type of disorder. Right. I believe the opposite of neuro divergent is, is there a word for that? Neurotypical. Neurotypical, yeah. So that's just like kind of normal? Yeah. Or what, what is viewed as normal? Yeah.

Reba: 18:14

So neuro divergence could be like, like hypersensitivity to sounds and noises. It could be, you know, being on the spectrum of, of autism. Um, it could be, you know, having a D h D just, you know, having some sort of obstacle when it comes to learning, which most people, I think a lot of people do have. Right. Um, but again, it's,

Jon: 18:39

it's the intensity

Reba: 18:40

of it. Yeah. You know?

Jon: 18:42

Yeah. So with neurotypical people, when they, those, I, I sense a lot of from neurotypical people, like, oh, I have my friends in my family, you know? Yeah. But everyone deals with shit, whether you're like, Glued to your phone or your tv or you're eating too much fast food or, you know, everybody's got their demons right? Yeah. And I can't stress it enough, but like confiding in friends and family, it, it is nice, but if you haven't solved an issue with your friends and family for a year or two as a grown adult, you should probably seek somebody else out who's gonna help you through that. Yeah. And I'm, I'm a very big advocate of that, you know, because if I were to confide with, and I did, you know, I have my homies in my career, you need them, you need them support. And they know a lot about me cuz I'm, I'm a fairly, I'm a pretty open book, you know? Yeah. Especially on the podcast too. But to get. like a specialized opinion, or a specialized advice, I should say, has been tantamount to where I am today.

Reba: 19:42

An advice, you know, that's tailored to you. Right? Right. I, I do think that as therapists, like I have to use myself in the room and, but ultimately I am not going to give you advice on how to not do something if you say that that's what you want to do. Gotcha. So I have to kind of take this objective lens of like, okay, this client came in here with this goal of, you know, stopping their substance use, and they're like, yeah, I wa you know, it's, it's fine. Um, I, I'm coming in here and I, I'm doing a little bit less and yeah. You know, I, I know that I said that I wanted to stop my substance use, but my friend came into town and that's, you know, and, and I thought it was fine. And I'm like, okay. Um, so when you first came in here, you said that you wanted to completely stop and so. You know, we could change that goal into, you know, I want to lessen my substance use. Right? But if that's, if you wanna completely stop it, do you think that this is helping you get there? Right. And then they'll kind of self-reflect on like, oh, shit.

Jon: 20:50

So they can come to the answer.

Reba: 20:51

Yeah. I'm not supposed to be telling them doing that for you. It's to help you kind of figure that out for yourself. And I'm here to help guide you in that.

Jon: 21:02

Right. So people have like this misconception, they're like, oh, a therapist is gonna tell me what I have to do. Yeah. And that's almost like you're, you're almost looking at it like a parent

Reba: 21:11

figure. Yeah. You know? And a, it could be an attachment figure. Yeah, for sure. For sure. For, yeah. It's, it's a relationship that people usually don't get outside of. in their everyday life. Mm-hmm. that will really help them kind of figure their stuff out for themselves. Even friends, you know, can have the best intentions for you and they're speaking from their lens and what they want for you. Right. So part of my training is kind of to take away what I want for the client and to figure out what the client wants for themselves. Right. And, and see how that fits, um, on a relational perspective.

Jon: 21:51

No. Now when you do couples therapy, is that together? Yeah. Double. Okay. Yeah. That's interesting.

Reba: 21:58

That's fun. Um, yeah. Couples therapy is, I would say it's harder. I can remember there's two people in there now. Yeah, exactly. And so the biggest thing is that sometimes couples come into therapy hoping that the other person will change. And so they're like, come here. You need to fix him. I'm, I'm here for support or whatever, you know? And I'm like, well, so what are you doing that's letting that behavior continue? And sometimes they don't like that, right? and I'm here to talk about him. I'm not here to, to talk about my stuff. Right? Because he's the one that needs to change, or she's the one that needs to

Jon: 22:39

change. Then you find out it takes two to tango.

Reba: 22:42

They have to come in. Or like some of the beginning stages is just helping them figure out a joint problem. You want this individual thing and you want this individual thing. How do we kind of make that, what. what is it about those things that are making an US problem and what is that US problem? We don't know how to communicate or we, we have trouble connecting outside of our family tasks or outside of mm-hmm. raising the kids. That's something that can be like, okay, well I contribute to the problem in this way and you contribute to the problem in this way, but we're still working on the same problem together. Yeah.

Jon: 23:21

You know, like how we just said it's, it's like a vulnerability thing. Yeah. Nobody likes going in there and feeling vulnerable. Yeah. You know, cuz the one person brought the other one in there to get fixed and now they're in there like with their armor shed and they're like, what the fuck's going on? Yeah. And the tables are turned on

Reba: 23:38

me. I have to look at what the dynamic is between the couples. Yeah. Okay. So when they, you know, fighting in therapy. I know that people try to refrain from doing it, but that's where we get the most information. when you two are really activated and you're arguing, what is your response? What are you getting triggered by? And what is your response? Mm-hmm. to your partner through that feeling of being triggered and, and how are they kind of contributing to that, but how are they also responding to your response? That's important is a cycle. That's

Jon: 24:10

that's some high intensity shit

Reba: 24:11

though. Yeah. Uh, yeah. When I first started with our first, um, client, I started with an individual and that was like, oh, what do I do? What do I do? And then, Once you add on the couple dynamic, you're like, oh, oh, the individuals, I got this Um, and families, like people come in with three kids and two parents and, and then you have to figure out how five people are contributing to this family thing.

Jon: 24:42

I just realized that I was in one of those, a family therapy session. Okay. That was actually the first one. How was that? I was so tired. Yeah. That I was just zoned out. I'm like 16. They got me,

Reba: 24:53

I was gonna say it was, that was a near 16.

Jon: 24:55

I was like 16. They got me up at like 8:00 AM and it was summer, right? Yeah. So it's not like high school and high school. I'm up and going anytime it's summertime, like I'm not getting up at eight. Right, right. And then you drag me like 20, 30 minutes in the. and it's my mom, my dad, and myself sitting there and I was just on autopilot the whole time. They talked most of the time. And then at the end, uh, my mom goes, well, John didn't really get much out of this this time. And then his name is Dave. Dave goes, well, maybe he wants to come, come back just himself and talk. And then my mom goes, oh, would you like that John? I'm like, sure, why not? Yeah. I mean, and that was that. So the, the family session, there was no fighting or whatever. Yeah.

Reba: 25:38

Um, so they came in saying, John has a problem.

Jon: 25:42

Y yeah. Yeah, they did. Yeah. Um, which, you know, to an extent, well, not to an extent, like flat out, I, I'm not gonna say I was the problem, you know, my parents also played a role in it too. They raised me. Yeah. There's a whole dynamic Yeah. System. Yeah. And I didn't realize this until, I guess spoke on somebody else's podcast, but like trauma comes in a lot of different forms and I didn't really wanna. View it as trauma with my upbringing, because I was very blessed. Right. Yeah. But there were just some things that, you know, kind of, you know, did a number on me internally, and I didn't have a, a, a very good way to express myself other than my poetry at the time, you know? So I had my poetry, which was heavily influenced by Armageddon in the Bible and stuff. And a lot of my writing in school and creative writing was very dark, so my teachers would actually contact my parents too. And I was never, I never like missed curfew or anything, you know? I liked drinking and smoking cigarettes. And to my mom, who's very, very, very Christian conservative, like, it, it was a problem. Right? Yeah. And then the things I was writing about, so that's when they said I needed to go to therapy was when I was 16. Yeah. You know, and yeah, I, I didn't share anything in front of my parents at the family one

Reba: 27:00

though. Yeah. In no way. Well, it's the first session too. Everybody's kind of discomfort. Like uncomfortable for sure. Feeling out the therapist, feeling out each other, like what's gonna

Jon: 27:10

happen. Yeah. And they said it, and it was a guy from our church at the time too, you know? Yeah. And I was already pretty like, closed off from that idea too. So I'm like, yeah, you know,

Reba: 27:19

this is, this is weird. Yeah. It makes sense. It makes sense ultimately, like when there is a quote unquote pro problem child, problem child. It's, it, it is all, it's, it's often all the shit of the family that the family doesn't wanna deal with. And so that child is like, either wants to deal with it or is just kind of, Yeah. That, that trauma is coming out in different ways. Right, right. So you can't really hide it as much as you think that you are and pushing it off. Like it, it just comes out in other ways.

Jon: 27:54

No, of course not. But luckily there wasn't any fighting, you know? Yeah. It was a very mellow family therapy session.

Reba: 28:00

Yeah. You know, I wonder what it would've looked like if you can kept going, because

Jon: 28:05

if I, if we went to a family therapy session between the ages of 19 to 21, it would've been mayhem. Yeah. Yeah. Because I was, I was, I was off my rocker back then, for sure. Yeah. And I was very angry. So if we would've kept going, it would've been different. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

Reba: 28:22

Yeah. It's, it's interesting with the fi family dynamics, what you can see too, um, there is a lot of, you know, the way that people get closer is often through some rupture and then of the relationship, but then repairing right afterwards. Yeah. If you don't get the repair after that's, it just keeps you in that state of like, rupture, rupture,

Jon: 28:42

rupture. Of course. Definitely. Like repaired it to the point of being able to work for both of their businesses. Yeah. You know, and Yeah. You know, it it, it worked itself out. Yeah. Lo and behold it took like 12 years, but

Reba: 28:54

um, it would take a long time in, in therapy too, and I think that's part of for sure, just accepting that process and kind of being able to work with people where they're at their most

Jon: 29:04

vulnerable.

Reba: 29:05

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jon: 29:11

Yo-yo, we're taking a quick break so I could tell you all about a really awesome podcast called Bunny Hugs and Mental Health Run by my man, Todd Reba. Bunny hugs and mental health deals with all things mental health from addiction, anxiety, and eating disorders to borderline personality disorders, schizophrenia and trauma. He talks to professionals, survivors, and loved ones about their sometimes informative, sometimes uplifting, and sometimes tragic stories. Definitely give my man a follow on Instagram that's bunny hugs podcast and tune in for some awesome, informative episodes. Earlier you said that you were gonna try and get into a place that dealt with more diversity, or you said non-traditional Yeah. Was the word you said.

Reba: 29:57

Non-traditional relationships. So polyamory. Um, okay. Which also doesn't, that's not the only form of nonmonogamous relationships. Yeah. But, um, yeah, just, just different, different relationships.

Jon: 30:12

That's

Reba: 30:12

interesting. Yeah. Um, I'm interested in that. I think that, you know, even calling our field marriage and family therapy is a little bit closed off too to, you're not a family unless you're, or you're not a couple or whatever. Yeah, I can see where you're saying that. Yeah. Just through, you have to be married in order to be legitimized in that way. And then family is separate because it's kind of saying you're not a family if it's just two of you as a married couple. Right. There's a family as well. And so that can be confusing. Yeah. I think that us as MFTs have kind of debated that at times too, and like what would it be like to just call it relational therapy? Um, because there are so many other relationships and maybe some people might not go to an M F T thinking that, oh, they only work with married couples and we're. We're non-traditional, are they gonna be as open

Jon: 31:08

to us? Right. But it's cool to get your, it's cool to like, want to go into that though, cuz it's different.

Reba: 31:14

Yeah. Yeah. I think it'll help me, you know, expand my mind, but also I've, I've just, I've always been interested in it. I, I don't think that our standard way of, of being in a coupler relationship has to be so stuck in that traditional

Jon: 31:30

path. Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, what is it like the nuclear family? Yes. Like that concept that started what, in the forties or fifties?

Reba: 31:38

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because it can feel kind of limiting and I think that everyone does kind of have their own approach to what that looks like, but people don't really talk about it. Right. You know, some people do fit that standard and it fits them and some people it doesn't. So they figure out other things that work for their relationship, but still don't really talk about it openly with other people because of.

Jon: 32:01

stigma. Right. So the other thing I want, so segueing in from what you just said, not feeling comfortable talking about things like that. Yeah. I wanted to ask like why therapy's so important, but why do you think right now, in this day and age where we are at Yeah. With humans consciousness, why is it so difficult with all of these options we have to communicate with people. How are we communicating with ourselves and these people less in a sense? Yeah. Like our feelings I should say.

Reba: 32:35

Yeah. That's a loaded question, It is. Um, yeah, I think it's extremely important because we're not connecting in a way that, you know, we have all these different ways to communicate and we have all these options and we've really, I think especially in America, have highlighted the importance of the individual and like getting what you need and getting what you want. And that is true and. We need people to survive. Yeah. Like that is just an A

Jon: 33:05

truth. It's dangerous to be that centered. Yeah. Self-centered, I should say.

Reba: 33:10

Yeah. And, and I'm not saying boundaries aren't good. The way that we can stay close with people can be through boundaries. Mm-hmm. But ultimately, you know, and, and I think this is my bias with being an M Ms M F T versus, um, you know, maybe an an individual therapist only, is that we have to keep thinking about the other people in the. that are not in the room even with our individual client. Okay. Even with our couple, you two are finding something that works for you, but if this doesn't work with your parents, how is that going to impact your relationship? Ah, right. You know, because it does. Yeah. And as much as we don't want it to, you know, and, and as much as people wanna be able to be their own person, it's just we're so tied to our families, we're so tied to our identities and our friends, you don't know yourself outside of your interactions with other people. And so I think therapy is really important, especially, you know, relational therapy in that, again, like a couple can come in and they can ask me what to do, but if that doesn't work for them together, if they don't know how to solve their problem, together without me, then they're gonna always need therapy. Right. And so my goal is to help them figure out how to have the conversation with each other. Okay. We're at this really activated point. What do you feel in your body that's telling you that you're getting activated now that you know that when my heart races, that means that I'm probably being angry. Let's set a timeout break where that person can call a timeout, but the person that's calling timeout has to time back in so the other person can feel secure in that you're gonna come back to this problem. Gotcha. And you're not just gonna leave me. Right. And, and, and people, you know, things happen so fast and you're so activated and that people just do things. We're reacting and we're not responding. I think therapy and being able to give you the tools. Do that for yourself. Mm-hmm. will ultimately help you get the things that you want and like figure out how to differentiate yourself in a way that you can still be yourself around all these other people that you feel so close to. Mm-hmm. without feeling controlled by them. Right.

Jon: 35:31

In a way, do you think the advent of technology has played some effect on our relationships that we have with people in person?

Reba: 35:37

Um, yes. Yeah. I think simple answer is yes. because how can it not? Right. You know? And, and even in our field, it's changed from in-person to teletherapy. Yeah. And there's like this debate of, you know, studies have shown that in-person therapy is more effective than telehealth. But what, what's on the other side of that is that some people, if they're not going in person, wouldn't even go at all. Mm-hmm. So teletherapy may be a stepping stool into that. And, and it still has an impact. It still creates the change, of course, you know, but us interacting in person right now, me sitting here in front of you, I can kind of feel, you know, the laughter, the, the emotions a little bit better than, you know, over the screen. Yeah. Yeah. So if I was virtual in my home, I'm comfortable in my space. Um, but we're not necessarily feeling that. in person interaction, their connection. Yeah. Yeah. Which, like, again, for teletherapy, it can be beneficial for us because we're seeing somebody else's space a little bit more. Ah, yes. It like gives us more of an idea of what home is like,

Jon: 36:52

um, how they're living.

Reba: 36:53

I can see that. Yeah. So it, so we're still figuring that out too. Um, they're still starting and, and continuing research on how Covid as a whole has impacted the field. Um,

Jon: 37:05

oh, that's gonna, but yeah, that study's gonna go on for a minute. I mean, we're, yeah, we're seeing those effects in the children. I mean, at least as a teacher and down in Chicago and we, we talk about it all the time, so there's just gonna be a one hell of a trickle effect. Yeah. All the way down and up the scale of, of people. Do you notice that more people are seeking help now than ever before?

Reba: 37:28

Um. Well, so since I just have been here in the two years, I can't say what it was like before. Right. But I have, you know, heard the increase of people needing therapy. And also we have you, we have like wait lists and stuff. I, I, another thing with therapists, another assumption that I get from people is like, but don't you need clients to, to be troubled in order for you to get paid. Right. Right. Don't you wanna kind of keep, that's stigma. Keep your clients there. Yeah. Again, with the whole, would you manipulate your clients cuz you need the money basically. I can't believe that

Jon: 38:02

person said that shit to you. That's

Reba: 38:05

bogus. Yeah. Some people are really skeptical of therapists. Um, that's wild. It just feels that unsafe to them. You know, they feel that unsafe in the world that, that they think that even somebody that is paid to help help them, you would ultimately not, and you know, I don't necessarily blame them. I think especially in like therapists on in Hollywood, right, right. In movies, they have the one therapist that lied because, because it would've helped this lawyer that reached out to them. Of course. And like, you

Jon: 38:38

know, well, there's money involved now there's more money involved, I should say.

Reba: 38:41

Yeah. But that's it. That, that doesn't really have to No, no. This isn't from my understanding at least, you know? No,

Jon: 38:48

this isn't, I think people watch too much tv. Yeah. They just, they just get these ridiculous ideas. Yeah.

Reba: 38:55

Yeah. So I guess that's like media in general, how that really influenced us, um, as a whole. And in this field particularly, you know, people are saying a lot of the, seeing a lot of therapy. Or therapist accounts, um, which is helping them get a better understanding of what some of the therapeutic terms and kind of saying, well, I don't need to go to therapy. I follow all these pages, and I do all these

Jon: 39:18

things. You know? Yeah. It's fucking bullshit. Yeah. you're, they're like, I watch all these documentaries and stuff, and I read these articles on Facebook. Yeah. And it's like, I know enough. You know? Yeah. And it's like, do you though, like the thing that

Reba: 39:33

I, you know, that that was an adjustment for me being, becoming a therapist, was that I have to call out what's happening for them, the process that I'm seeing mm-hmm. for them in the room. So someone says like, I'm not angry, and they're like, okay, okay. Um, you're not angry. That's fine. What I'm noticing is that your face is turning red as we talk about this, so maybe it's a difficult thing to talk about. Or what I'm noticing is that your shoulders have tensed up. What is that about? You know? And so then they're like, Oh, I didn't even realize that my shoulders were tensing. So it's like very in the moment work. And so you can know the terms and you can know the actions and think about how it's happening for you. But when someone really catches what's happening for you while it's happening for you, that's like a pivotal right moment. Yeah. And that's like, oh, oh, that's what's happening right now. And if this feeling happens again now I know that that's what's happening. It's like a trigger. Yeah,

Jon: 40:32

yeah, yeah. I, I say like, had you noticed like more people reaching out for therapy? Because I, I noticed a, a difference between generations like my parents, our parents' generation, and the one above them. Not really too good with their emotions. Yeah. Or just from what I've viewed. And that's not to say like a generalized term about most older people don't know their emotions well, but a lot, a lot of them were just taught to work. You know? And there's this stigma, which was another question I was gonna get into was like the difference in genders Yeah. That go to therapy because you know, the rate of suicide for men specifically across the globe is higher than women. And Yeah. I was wondering if that whole stigma of you're a man, don't cry about it or don't talk about your feelings. Yeah. You know, has negatively impacted, obviously negatively impacted men in general. So when couples come. is it mostly the wives bringing the men in? Hmm. Um, or is it 50 50

Reba: 41:35

usually? I think, yeah. Well, from my experience so far, I think it has been maybe like a, Hmm, I wanna say like maybe 60 40. 60 40? Yeah. Okay. Because I have seen, you know, men that have already been to therapy before. Okay. Um, which has been, you know, refreshing for me to see too. Um, I have my own biases. I'm, of course I'm a human too. Of course. Um, I think that what I liked in what you said was generational gender conditioning, because that the generational piece is also very huge. Oh, it's huge. Yeah. It, it. We are carrying a lot more than we think we are. I just finished my Family of Origin course, and so we talk, one of the models is, you know, contextual family therapy, and that means what is, what are the three generations, um, dealing with right now? So the person comes in, if she's a mom, what's the generation below her as well as the generation above her kind of going through? Or what were the two generations above her, her grandma and her mom going through that impacts her, which is something that she's going to pass on. Right? Well, she could pass on to her children if she's not aware of it, or, or if she is mm-hmm. you know, what do you wanna pass on in that

Jon: 42:56

way? Yeah. And I, I think that sometimes they don't even know they're passing that stuff on, you know? Yeah. Which, You can't blame'em for it. Right. I don't wanna blame anybody for that, you know? Yeah. There are some people that do things and they know they're doing it, you know? But yeah, it's why it was kind of hard for me to like be angry at my parents, you know? Cause it's like they're just trying the best they can, you know? Yeah. They didn't have the tools that I, we have now. Yeah. You know, we're so self-reflective as a generation. Yeah. And even Gen Z, which is by far more nihilistic than our generation you know? And just from talking with groups of friends or just random people I've met, I've seen a lot more men going to therapy. Yeah. Which is great. You know? I love it. Yeah. I, I, I'm, I'm enjoying it too, cuz you know, you know, the world's a dark place right now. Or at least social media and the news has made it out to be a dark place. Right. But when you see people in person, you can see the ones who got the clouds hanging above their head, you know? Yeah. And you don't wanna see that. Right. So I don't want like a specific gender or race to hold. Burdens like that. Yeah. You know, I think the only way that we're gonna get mental health to a, a better point across the board for everybody is everybody's gotta talk about it. Yeah. You know? Absolutely not, not maliciously. Right. Or not cuz you saw on the news this, that, and whatnot. Like, if you just have the conversation with somebody face to face Yeah. We're not all trying to be that angry and sad, you know, but it's, it's tough being vulnerable. Yeah. Nobody wants to be

Reba: 44:29

That's exactly what I was thinking. You know, like, it could feel like a threat when you're being so vulnerable in the way that someone else

Jon: 44:35

responds. Well, nobody taught us it. Yeah. Nobody taught our parents it, nobody taught our grandparents it. Yeah. Like, uh, what, what is this an emotion? Like I was just taught to work, you know? Yeah. And now we have, I was actually gonna write a little piece on this because obviously over the, the years of humanity we've seen survival become easier. Right? Right. So before all of our free time was acquiring food, water, shelter, Work crops, whatever you want to do. Yeah. That was our free time. Now we're at a point in humanity where we have a lot of free time. Right. So now everybody's a philosopher. Yeah. You know, it's not just Socrates sitting there like thinking all the time now. Everybody's thinking all the time. Right. And we don't understand our emotions are our thoughts. Yeah. And we're trying to find those answers through documentaries. Yeah. Right. As you said, I think getting more therapists out there is probably the answer. Yeah.

Reba: 45:30

Yeah, absolutely. I, I do think that we're starting, you know, some people I don't wanna see, say everybody is able to find the space to move from surviving to thriving in a way. Right? And when you're going through, you know, people say, oh, like, oh, I see all these people with all these money and like, and, and they're depressed. Like, you know, like, what is going on here? And it's like when you're in survival mode, you don't have to think about the emotions. And so now that the next generation, like our generation, you know, where our parents are like, oh, you have it so much easier. Why are you so sad? It's like you didn't have time to think about how is it we're

Jon: 46:07

thinking about? Yeah.

Reba: 46:09

Um, and it's overwhelming. Yeah. And we have that space and now and it comes in and it, it kind of takes over you a little bit u until you understand what that feeling is and what it's trying to tell you. And yeah, a lot of our feelings transition into thoughts and it's like that need to do something about it. Right. We can't sit in our sadness forever. No. I need to do something to get rid of the sadness, the

Jon: 46:33

call to action. Yeah. un unfortunately, people, they're call to action. Well, I'm speaking for personal experience. When I would think that I need to do something about the way I'm feeling. Yeah. I would go drink, right. I would go party or I go do drugs, you know? Yeah. And that's obviously not the right answer. We just need to have people better equipped to use the correct call to action. Right. It's like, all right, you're probably sad cuz you're, you've been staring at your phone for two to three hours, scrolling social media, seeing these very, really rich people, these really rich, beautiful people. Yeah. And then you start comparing yourself to them. Yeah. Right. I didn't even think I wrote this down in the outline. Do some of the problems that you deal with, like couples therapy or family therapy mm-hmm. or people that you see, do they talk about like screen time a lot? Like, oh, they're always on their phone. Is there ever a disconnect with that or there are there problems more natural?

Reba: 47:25

I think that it could be part of it, um, without, you know, going into TT l I think sometimes it's, yeah, that, that seeing that somebody is paying more attention to their phone than to them or something, or their TV or something. Yeah. And, and, and you know, that can be a way to cope if there's a child coming in and they're like, the parents are like, oh, they're always on their phone. That's like their only escape. What is happening in the family system that is making them not want to go downstairs and wants to prefer to stay in their room? What feels so safe about their room that they can't get in the other spaces of the house? And so, yeah, like it, it, technology is a tool and you have to use it whichever way that. want to, like, I like Pinterest so much. yes, I do scroll on Pinterest, but the thing that I like about Pinterest is that it has recipes or it has DIY projects, so it's like things that make me want to do something right in a way. And so then I, I use that and, you know, Instagram I'm also sucked into, but I have to be very intentional when I start noticing that I'm feeling a certain way after following this person. I have to actively unfollow them. And, and, and you can kind of facilitate how you want your social media to the algorithm. Yeah. Yeah,

Jon: 48:46

exactly. It takes a while to get it. It does, it takes it a while to get the algorithm right

Reba: 48:51

though, because they are trying to get you to get your attention.

Jon: 48:54

Yeah. Right. When I, I've started a couple social medias just because. Whatever, 10 to 12 years I've gotten rid of'em. I'm done with this, you know, and I've had to start new ones all over again. And most recently I, when I started the one for the podcast and stuff, the, the explorer page on Instagram mm-hmm. for a 29 year old male, just the flat out ag algorithm. I was like, I can't believe this is here. Yeah. This is all just nice cars, clothes, watches, and women in bikinis, I was like, are you serious right now? Like they do not shy away from that. Yeah. And lo and behold it took a while, but now it's mostly anime and basketball. That's actually all my social media. Nice. Yeah. Took a

Reba: 49:37

while, but sounds very, you right?

Jon: 49:39

Yeah, Um, I, I say the technology a lot cuz I pretty much talk about it on all of my podcasts. Yeah. Um, it's very dangerous to me and. I just like how Elon Musk talks about how AI could possibly be dangerous. Yeah. Like I feel like social media especially. Yeah. You know, we feel like just because we can send somebody a message and talk to them, it's the same as like what you and I are doing right now. That interaction, you know, but having these cathartic moments of opening up or is crucial, you know? Yeah. And I hadn't like spoken about this. I think you made a, a mention of it. That person made, uh, a comment about, oh, well don't you need patience in order to have money, you know, so, yeah. You wouldn't, you wouldn't want to fix all your patience cuz then they wouldn't come back to you. Right. Yeah. Like, I, like you said, that's a misconception. Like, we are here, you are here to help us. Yeah. You know, and my mentor who got me through the worst of my addiction, substance abuse mm-hmm. I lo I didn't lose my slot, I stopped going to my biweekly slot, number one from money and number two for time. Yeah. You know, I don't, I, I see him occasionally I say, Hey, if somebody cancels, yeah. Let me slide into that time slot. You know, like I still go and I still talk to him. But even at the age of 29 and I'm near four years sober, like there's still so many more things I can deal with healing. Yeah. You know, um, I, I don't know if I'll ever be at a point of being fully healed

Reba: 51:16

because you're always changing exactly like you're going, there's so many different things at different points in time that it, it's hard to kind of not need that person. And that's why I think that everyone should at least go to therapy once. Right. Like, Someone asked me once, don't you just think that because you're a therapist, so now you think that everyone has problems? And I'm like, I personally know that I like talking about emotions, so I'm going to try to go to those weekly sessions more so than somebody else. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that doesn't necessarily mean that nobody needs like a check-in. It, it, it's kind of like a maintenance thing when you think about it with your mental health, right. Am am I good? Am I where I wanna be? Am I doing the things, do I have the tools that I need to manage this thing? And if you don't, you might find a stronger need for a therapist. And if you do, you feel like you have a good handle on it, you can take a break. Right? Um, so it's really self-assessment. We can't, we're not gonna make anyone go or not, but when you feel ready to leave, we'll say, okay, and feel free to email me whenever you wanna come back. Right?

Jon: 52:27

Um, yeah, I think getting people in there for that first session that was important.

Reba: 52:31

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but shopping around, as you kind of mentioned in the beginning, is totally normal. You have to, and I, I can resonate with the difficulty of that, right? Like, it's hard to find a therapist, let alone a therapist that really resonates with you and what you want. You,

Jon: 52:50

you know, what you're going through at the time. Yeah. So, like I said, I've had two main ones. Yeah. And I could have went back to the first one when I truly decided to get sober. Mm-hmm. But I actually wanted to listen to somebody. He, the second therapist I got, he was 27 years sober. Yeah. He worked, he worked the program. Like Yeah. He wasn't just like, he didn't just major in subs or get his master's in substance abuse. Right. Like he beat it, you know? Yeah. And I really needed, Yeah. It wasn't to like discredit the other one, the other therapist I had. Right. He helped me through the problems I was going through at a younger age, you know? Yeah. So you do gotta shop around. Yeah.

Reba: 53:31

Yeah. And that experience does matter ultimately. Um, for sure. Yeah.

Jon: 53:35

You, you, I can't even, like, like I said, I couldn't even imagine not having therapy. Yeah. And even the two people that didn't stay around for too long, like I still got what I needed to out of it. Mm-hmm. you know, it's, it's just very discouraging when things don't work out on the first try. Yeah. You know, but that's the instant gratification we have

Reba: 53:52

right now. Especially when you're being so emotional. Right. If you're being so emotional and trying to really trust another person Ooh. And they're just not getting it, it's, oh, that's tough to do that again with somebody else. Yeah. That's a lot. It's hard. It's,

Jon: 54:06

it's actually draining. Yeah. Like, like running a mile is draining. Like being emotionally vulnerable is draining.

Reba: 54:13

Yeah. Too. Yeah. And that's why I kind of try, I like, I really do take the job so seriously because. uh, in like trying to meet people where they're at and, and understanding that this may or may not be a fit at first, and that's okay. I try to really emphasize, you know, if I'm not the therapist for you, a, at least at t f I, like, we can ref refer people out in within T f I if we want it. So if I'm not the therapist for you, I want you to feel at least comfortable enough to tell me that, and that could be really hard to do for people to say, I don't like you Well, this isn't working. You know,

Jon: 54:50

And, and then in a sense, people will, people have difficulty hurting other people's feelings. Exactly. And they think they're hurting your feeling when they say that, when they're not. They're just being real with you. Yeah. You

Reba: 55:00

know, and I have to be okay with that. Like ultimately, if, if me getting a different therapist for you is gonna help you better than I would directly, like, I have to be okay with that. I have, like, I will be okay with that. You know, obviously nobody likes hearing like, this isn't vibing. Right? Like, we're not working, you're not helping me. But at the same time, like there is yeah, that, that stripping of the ego kind of in, in the therapeutic space where I'm like, I'm here for you, not for me. you know, so, so if you need something different, and this is not something that we can figure out together mm-hmm. I'm gonna refer you out to somebody else. I'm gonna like ask you what you're looking for in that person. And I'm going to try to find that for you because it's, I, it's important for you to stay in therapy for another nine weeks because you're too afraid to tell me that this is really not working. Like it's, it's doing some damage for you.

Jon: 55:54

Right. Um, because then you're almost trying to, you're trying to make it work when it's not working. Yeah. And now you're changing your, your mind.

Reba: 56:02

and some people can't even get to the point of like, I don't want you as my therapist. Some people can't even say like, this isn't working. Whatever we're doing here isn't working. Or, you know? Right. And so whenever somebody does express that to me, I'm like, thank you so much for the feedback, because whether I was or wasn't picking up on that, like, it, it takes a lot for you to even say that to me, and I recognize that. Right. So sometimes if I notice something's a little bit off, we have to like pull teeth a little bit and be like, oh, did that, you know, I, I noticed that there was this awkward space between us when I said this. is there something that impacted you when I said that? Right. And what is that? And they might say no. Okay. And I'm like, okay, well, um, you again, like your shoulders 10 step, that's just what I noticed. Do you wanna talk about that instead? And if they say no, then I'll say, okay, well if anything does come up, feel free to let me know. Yeah. Like, just opening that you can be honest with me. Which takes, takes trust to be able to do too. That's tough.

Jon: 57:04

Yeah. Trust is tough. Yeah. Especially when everybody on this planet has a reason to be hurt. Yeah. In one way or another. Yeah. You know, but building that trust up is, is tough work and it's totally worth it. Like, I originally didn't tell anything to the first therapist for six months in my head. I didn't understand the whole doctor patient confidentiality thing, So I'm like, yeah.

Reba: 57:26

So I Especially as a minor. Right, right, right. Yeah. And

Jon: 57:29

so I originally, like the first like six months, I'm like, dude, this guy's gonna tell my mom something. I'm not telling this guy shit. Yeah. You know? And then I think he made a comment like that. He goes, you know, I'm not gonna like tell your mom any of this. Yeah. And I was like, to guess. I'm like, are you sure? Like go to the same church. You know, so you see each other? He goes, no, that's highly illegal, John. And I was, had no idea. Yeah. You know, he goes, unless you are going to like harm yourself. Yeah. And you're not gonna do that. And I'm like, nah, I'm not gonna do that.

Reba: 58:01

Right. Unless you're in end danger to yourself or others. Yeah. Or Right. Yeah. Or an elderly person. I've like Right, right. A whole mandated reporter speech in my head.

Jon: 58:10

You've got the spiel

Reba: 58:11

already. Yeah. Yeah. We just wanna make sure that you're safe, ultimately. And if it gets to that point of like not being safe, then, then you have to make sure that you're supported.

Jon: 58:23

You gotta reach out to people. Yeah. I mean, we haven't like really dove into it, but like I've talked a lot about technology, we've talked about generational differences and stuff. Yeah. One thing that was very alarming to me, and as open as the millennial and the Gen Z generation are with people's with ethics almost, you know? Mm-hmm. it's very dis disturbing about the rates of suicide at a younger age. Right. Yeah. And I don't know what we're gonna do about that. Yeah, because that's alarming, you know? Yeah. Like it's mostly like high schooler and even like they said like in 12 and 13 year olds too, that it's increased. Yeah.

Reba: 59:01

That's, there's like so much of a structural, you know, it's, it's not only the individual child, but it is the family. It is the school system. It is the community. Community.

Jon: 59:12

It's the government, the

Reba: 59:13

whatever, the whole thing. Exactly. Um, and so that, that's one of the huge reasons why therapy is huge and, and really important. And I think a lot of therapists are going into schools now. A lot of MFTs as well as social workers Right. Are, are in schools for that support. And I don't really, you know, I, I don't really know what to do about that. You know, I, I can, mental health awareness is, is huge. And, and providing children with the support that they need. Um, ultimately it's really hard with children cuz a lot of that is, you know, based on what the parents want Right. And what the parents are willing to. do for their child. That's

Jon: 59:54

tough too though. Yeah. Because sometimes they don't get it or the parents don't understand that what they might be doing is negatively impacting the

Reba: 1:00:01

child. Yeah. And the parents might be having other pressures that are adding on to this inability to, to, to kind of get that movement going. Parents, especially when they come in sessions, they're like just as nervous too. Right. You know, what are, what are you gonna tell me? And, and, and it's hard to receive that message because a lot of the meaning that is made of like a change needs to be made if that change has to do with the parent. A lot of people can internalize that as like, I'm a bad mom, I'm a bad dad. And that's kind of, I know I'm, I'm overgeneralizing here, but a lot of parents, like, that's like the deep-rooted fear is like, I don't want to be labeled as a bad parent because if I'm a bad parent, what does that mean about me? Right. You know?

Jon: 1:00:42

That's tough to come to

Reba: 1:00:43

though. Yeah. And so they have to be willing to face those harsh realities. And if you've been trained. your whole life to not do that

Jon: 1:00:54

he said, and you're probably not gonna do

Reba: 1:00:55

it. Yeah. Yeah. But big question is when, when people are showing some reluctance is, oh, I, you know, there's that whole intergenerational thing of my parents did this and I turned out fine. Said the probably most not fine person, person in the room. I was gonna say. Yeah. And so we're just, well, how is that working out? Is that working out well for you right now? Right. You know, is that really giving you the, the things that you wander or are hoping for? And, and they're kind of like, sit there and are like, you know,

Jon: 1:01:29

no. Yeah, exactly.

Reba: 1:01:31

No, not, not really. No. Fine. Let's, let's try something out. Let's, let's just try it and if it works, it works. If it doesn't, we'll try something else. Yeah. And so Billy being willing to just experiment in that way, let's try therapy for the child and see how that works out. See

Jon: 1:01:49

where that goes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's important to, to get more resources to the children. Yeah. You know, cuz they're the future. Yeah. And I can't, I mean, the stories Lisa tells me and then like how I would react to the situation, she goes, yeah, you couldn't be a teacher And I'm like, absolutely not. Like I'm way too crude. Yeah. You know, but I do. generally deep down, have like a compassion for them, obviously. Yeah. Like you don't want the the kids to go through anything that you went through. Yeah. Right. So like you said, we just need to get more resources out to the kids. There are more M MFTs. Yeah. MFTs in in schools now, which is huge. Yeah. You know, cuz if kids are gonna get a little interaction from social media and hell, we don't even know how it's affecting adults right now. Yeah. Like social media and technology and then we're giving it to almost like all these kids. Yeah. The six to nine year olds. It's like, you know, we didn't know how bad cigarettes were. Yeah. Right. But right until we found out cigarettes were bad. And at the time, like they had ads, like the doctors are like, yeah, smoke a cigarette. Now you got seven to nine year olds smoking cigarettes back in the forties and fifties. You know? Yeah. And then when we find out it's bad, like, oh, you can't have that now. Yeah. So in maybe like 20 to 30 years, people are gonna be like, oh, my kid doesn't need a social media. right. That kid doesn't need a Facebook or all of this technology. Like they need to find their own identity. Yeah. First,

Reba: 1:03:12

you know? Right. And then it, it's also, again, managing that pushback. The, you know, maybe the parents don't want that, but then the emotional attachment to like, oh, all my kids have these, all these other kids, all

Jon: 1:03:23

my, all my friends. Exactly. And have their own accounts and whatever.

Reba: 1:03:27

Right. You know, and, and they don't really get that either, you know, so it's, it's hard. I, you know, parents parenting, I'm not a parent yet. It is. I

Jon: 1:03:37

have a cat

Reba: 1:03:40

I have a dog, so it's

Jon: 1:03:41

a little, little different.

Reba: 1:03:42

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's a lot. And, and parents feel so protective of their kids, so a lot of it is running off of fear. Right. Um, and that can impact, it can do some damage in and of

Jon: 1:03:55

itself. Yeah. I think. Yeah. But I think like, you know, the therapy's gonna be huge. Yeah. Now that it's becoming more acceptable. Yeah. Just like how tattoos became more acceptable over here. Like therapy's gonna be more access accessible and

Reba: 1:04:11

acceptable. Yeah. Yeah. I think so too. I think so too. I think, again, people are still scared of it. Right. You know, that running off of fear, but I think when you open yourself up to it and just try it out, it can help a lot. Um, and I'm so, I feel so bad I feel for the people that say that they had bad experiences with therapists, but I hope that that's like not a one and done kind of thing.

Jon: 1:04:35

Hope it's short-lived. Yeah. I hope they take the time to, to trust the process

Reba: 1:04:40

again. Yeah. And you're going to, you might need a different kind of therapist at different moments in time.

Jon: 1:04:45

Right. You know? Right. So, I think we touched on a lot of good points. Yeah, this

Reba: 1:04:50

is, this was really nice. Thank you.

Jon: 1:04:52

Yeah, we, we thank you. We really hit it off. Really, really appreciate you coming on to talk. Yeah, it was awesome. I'm gonna close things out, so I really appreciate everybody coming out. Definitely wanted to do a little bit of a, I should do a warning more at the, the front, but if you do have. any thoughts of harming yourself or, or other people or you feel helpless or anything, please like contact the correct professionals to help get you through it. If you are looking to just talk to people for other issues you're going through and don't have the answers for, can't, can't recommend therapy enough, enough times on this podcast. Mental health is probably the most important thing that we conscious human beings have right now, uh, in the most conscious period of humanity. So definitely take care of your brains and your minds and your hearts and your souls. So appreciate everybody coming out. Thanks for coming by, Reba. Thank you. Absolutely. You guys have a good start to your day or your week and stay up and feel free.